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>>> (16 total) AuthorTopic: Laminate DIY material- others discussed too
wbassettmember
Joined: Aug 1,
Posts: 64
[Edited by wbassett on Sep 16, at 11:30 PM]
I wanted to pass something along that was discovered during a quest for a paintatble screen substrate that was larger than the common 4x8 material commonly found in Lowes and Home Depot.What I wanted was something to use as a substrate to use as a 54x96 screen that I could use as a base screen for a paint application. What I found exceeded anything I expected.First, I have to say up front I didn't find this material by myself. Laminates have actually been used by some, but for some reason they never were widely accepted, until now I should say. Maybe it was because there were (and still are) some outstanding DIY paint methods and people became convinced that unless you used paint, you could not get a great screen when it came to DIY.Again, I have to say there are some people that have done a lot of research into mixing blends of paints to achieve awesome screens that work better in ambient light than most sub $500 commercial screens. But being a firm believer of the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid... or more politically correct- Keep It Simple Silly) I think the majority of DIYers want a screen and not a screen hobby.With that said, commercial screens, even the top end ones do not employ paint, rather they use materials, films, and top coatings (which could be compared to paints, but NOT latex-- more on that later though)After a couple of people reintroduced laminates as something that easily exceeded a 4'x8' panel, I was very interested and excited, but also wanted some data to back up any claims of what this stuff could do.The data started off as research for a completely neutral gray or white paint or material, and we already had some data compiled. (thanks again to another individual with professional paint mixing equipment, a spectrophotoanalyzer, lumen meters, and equipment to test gain (Gain measurements is something completely unheard of in DIY- people talk and guess, but nobody ever backed up thier claims)There are a lot of companies that make laminate. So the first goal was to find a laminate that everyone could easily get. Wilsonart is sold through any Lowes or Home Depot. Formica is also sold in every Lowes and Home Depot, but it takes a little longer for large sheets to come in, and it is a few cents a sq ft more expensive.Formicastill being researched and tested, but Wilsonart has already been used by people and is slightly cheaper and quicker to get.Attached is a sample screen shot of a Wilsonart Designer White screen. (I am in no way affiliated with this company, and as this thread progresses other options will be discussed as well)
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Joined: Aug 1,
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[Edited by wbassett on Sep 17, at 12:36 AM]
As some of the screen shots started to come in, I couldn't help but think "Parkland and Do-able also has some really impressive screen shots." There had to be a way to back up a 'picture' of someone's screen... which is always subject to a person taking the best possible screen shot to 'show off' thier screen. I don't think people do that to mislead others... it's more that they are proud of thier find and want to show it off. That is fine, but tends to be biased somewhat, especially when there are two things missing:1 Comparison shots directly compared to other screens, and2 Data. Without Data it boils down to personal opinion, speculation, and for the most part good intentions.But data is a must. Anyone can claim they found something great, or 'invented' a paint mix that will dethrone Goo or Liquiscreen. Without data to back it up, it is more of an opinion than a fact.So we decided this needed more testing and data. What we found through independant tests was a real eye opener.First before getting into the laminate specific data, I think we should talk about colors. People have been trying to duplicate commercial screens and their color makeup with paints for years. Some have found paint blending and mixes that rival top end screens, but these mixes may not be easy for the common person to mix or apply, some even require spraying equipment to yeild their optiomal performace. Others have settled on a 'one can' solution. One can off the shelf paint solutions are cheap and relatively easy to apply, but they are not optimal screens. Sure they will give good to better than good perfomance, but don't expect to spend $10 on paint and have the equivalent of a $2,000 screen, that isn't going to happen.People have agreed on the basic theory that any screen should be as neutral as possible is the best approach. So based on that paints were analyzed and converted from thier L*ab color codes to a more simple RGB format. RGB codes are easier for a person to see how neutral a color really is, and if it is not, how much color is being pushed. The first graph is of common commercial screens and paints people have used for screen.One interesting thing that was discovered was that even the commercial screens were not as neutral as everyone thought they would or should be. Most have a green deficency to them as can be seen.(Pure White, Neutral Gray, Pure Black, and Lamp Black have been added as reference points.) This will be discussed later on...As it can be seen, most of the commercial screens and common paints used for projector screens fall between the 200-255 range. So armed with this information, a laminate within this range for a matte white screen as well as a viable gray option for contrast boost and help with ambient light was needed.The next graph is the color data of the tested Wilsonart laminates also converted to their RGB values. What was found were colors that matched the color curves of the manufactured screens. With the exception of Pewter, all the colors sampled met the range and curve of manufactured screens. Dove Grey was by far the darkest of the grays, but it was not any darker than the Firehawk G2.Wilsonart Grey came in as a very viable light grey screen option, but the most interesting to me was Fashion Grey. Look at the RGB values from the Wilsonart graph compared to the first color graph. Fashion Grey is very close to the ever popular Behr Silver Screen paint a lot of people have used (and dare I say fallen prey too). The main notable exception is Fashion Grey is much more neutral than Silver Screen, and also exhibits the same green deficiency we are seeing in commercial screens. When I held a sample of Fashion Grey up to my Silver Screen painted screen, it was almost the same darkness, but something was 'different'. As the numbers show Fashion Grey doesn't have the blue push Silver screen has, which made it a very interesting option for a gray screen alternative.The next graph should get people's attention. It is an actual gain test and data on the various materials. This is the one area that I have never before seen done with a DIY offering. Like I said earlier, people would 'say' they see a better gain, or speculate that something has a better gain... but now we have some actual numbers. Some have even redefined the meaning of gain to make their application look better than it may actually be. The fact is without standards, data and tests, nothing can be considered as a legitimate option. It may look good, but with out data and direct comparisons it falls back into the realm of personal opinion and speculation.Gain in of itself can mean very little. You can have great gain on center axis, but if it drops off too sharply then the viewing cone will not work for most home theater setups... casual or dedicated Home Theater rooms. What was found was this material matches the gain curve of some popular commercial screens.Wilsonart Designer White follows the gain curve of a StudioTek 130 commercial screen quite well. Designer White has a gain of 1.24 as compared to the 1.3 of the more expensive StudioTek Screen.Grey follows the gain curve of the Grayhawk, and even exceeds the Grayhawk in gain throughout most of the curve. At it's worse it matches the commercial screen, and even at a 50 degree viewing angle it comes in slightly better. This makes it an excellent option as a Grayhawk alternative as far as color and gain. The Wilsonart Grey has a gain of .94 as compared to .84 of the Grayhawk.The last chart in this post will be the raw data. When it was decided that Wilsonart was of interest, a dialog was opened with the company to get more information as well as get them to understand what we wanted this for and how it would be used. They werereceptive and put me in contact with their technical department, specifically their color lab. They provided the CIE L*ab color information as well as the test samples. The samples were then independently analyzed and verified for accuracy. This is the data Wilsonart provided and what was cross checked.Raw Data like this is pretty useless to people, so here is a great link that anyone can use. Wilsonart themself provided this link to help convert their data to the RGB format that was liked to simplify things. http://www.easyrgb.com/calculator.php (This site can be used to convert any L*ab codes to their RGB values, which I would like to see be used to build a database of paints and substrates people use)
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Posts: 2,538
I checked into laminate prices before I painted my screen, but it was too expensive for me. In my opinion, laminate is a waste of money if you're going to paint it. If you want to use it as is, fine. Do you know MDF is available in sheets larger than 4'X8'? I used a 5'X8' sheet for my screen, cut down to 52"X92".
wbassettmember
Joined: Aug 1,
Posts: 64
[Edited by wbassett on Sep 17, at 1:16 AM]
Now for some specifics as far as sizes and prices.Again, this is purely DIY and not a Wilsonart promotion. They make their money selling to contactors and companies like Lowes and Home Depot. The amount of money they will make selling material over the 4x8' size for 'screens' is really insignificant to what their market is. This does make this a great material becuase the company isn't dedicated to the 'Home Theater' niche.A few reason's why Wilsonart was picked over a more famous company like Formica is:1 Formica is slightly more expensive and takes longer to ship.2 Formica may have very similar colors, but its surface is much smoother. This can contribute to hot spotting as a screen material.Pionite is also being evaluated, but it is not as readily available in all parts of the country as Wilsonart is through Lowes and Home Depot. Pionite does make an excellent white screen material, but as of right now there has been no data compiled. Eventually there will be though...Color CodesDesigner White D354-60 -- Close to a StudioTek in color, performance, and gainGrey -60 A light Grey that will provide a contrast boost and some ambient light performance.Fashion Grey D381-60 I call this the Behr Silver Screen Killer. It is almost the same darkness, but without the blue push and negative characteristics.Platinum D315-60 A darker gray that falls between Silver Screen and the Firehawk G2 (closer to Silver Screen though)Dove Grey D92-60 This is a serious contender for people that are G2 Fans. The color, gain, and performance are all similar, but at a fraction of the price.Price... now that it was finally mentioned.I guess it depends on if you consider DIY cheap, easy, cheap and easy, or want the best for nothing.Paints are cheap, there is no deniying that. Advanced mixes though can start running you into money with all the components needed, not to mention trial and error testing., I am not saying paint is a bad way to go. An advancence paint mix could very easily cost almost at much as one of the Wilsonart laminates, and you still won't have any data with the paints...You also have to look at what size screen you want. If you want a 48x85 screen, and want a paint solution, then any 4x8 material found at your local Lowes or Home Depot will work. It's when you want a screen larger than that where things can become tricky, and that also depends on what part of the country you live in. What some people use in one area, may not be avaiable in your area.Wilsonart has verified that all Lowes and Home Depot carry their product. So it should be readily available just about anywhere in the US.Price... this will vary from region to region, but expect a 4x8 sheet to cost under $50, a 5x8 sheet around $70-80, and a 5x10 sheet $80-90. It also comes in a 5'x12' sheet, but that exceeds the maxim 60" height to width ratio of a 16:9 screenSome people might be saying now, wow I don't want to spend that much. I'm not really sure what to say about that. Less than $100 for a screen material that performs as well as screens hundreds of dollars more in price... for people with that mindset, optimal or near optimal picture quality obviously isn't the proiority. Go with a Kilzit painted screen, or UPW (Behr Ultra Pure White) and don't read any further in this thread...People will spend thousands on their projectors, then want the performance of a $3,000 Mirage screen for the price of a can of off the shelf paint? We have to be realistic and understand that isn't going to happen. I think the 10% range is a good factor for an intro screen. Say you pay $1,000 or less for your projector, look at $100 or less for a DIY screen. The laminates though are still under the $100 mark and are showing the performance of mid to high end screens... so it's all up to the individual on what they want to go with.
wbassettmember
Joined: Aug 1,
Posts: 64
I checked into laminate prices before I painted my screen, but it was too expensive for me. In my opinion, laminate is a waste of money if you're going to paint it. If you want to use it as is, fine. Do you know MDF is available in sheets larger than 4'X8'? I used a 5'X8' sheet for my screen, cut down to 52"X92".
[Edited by wbassett on Sep 16, at 11:47 PM]
I am not saying painted screens are not a viable option, but to answer your question, nobody in my area would order MDF over 4x8. I checked every place around, including Lowes and Home Depot and got nowhere.Too expensive can be a factor to some people, but really what is 'expensive' when you are looking at a cheap commercial screen that costs hundreds of dollars more?All I am trying to do here is provide an optionsome data to back it up. I know some people won't care about data, testing, and things like that, and to those this probably isn't for them. Although I still think and say for under $100 and you can get a screen material with some actual data to back it up isn't a bad price at all.
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