Cubes and setts, cobbles and cobblestones. The terms seem to be interchangeable, depending on your location. There's a whole range of regional terms, too, such as "Cassies" or "Nidgers" in Scotland, and "Belgian Block" in some strange places in southern England. The terms refer to blocks of natural stone, hewn from a quarry, in a range of sizes and rock types, and "cobbles" or cobblestones is also the name given to large, rounded beach pebbles 200-400mm in size, which are sometimes called 'Duckstones'. These rounded ' cobbles ' are discussed on a separate page. The general public tend to refer to the gritstone 'Hovis Loaf' type as Cobbles, although the correct term is 'Setts' - these range from 100x100mm to 200x250mm in size, and have an average depth of 150-200mm.
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Cobbles, setts, kerb and flag identificationTo be technically precise (ie: according to BS EN :), a sett is a dressed block of stone having plan dimensions that are 50-300mm in length, and a thickness of at least 50mm. The length and/or width should not usually be greater than twice the thickness. However, some decorative setts for garden use may be only 25mm or so thick and 100x100mm or even larger, in plan.
A cube is a type of sett, one which has all three dimensions roughly equal.
Cubes tend to be used for more decorative work, particularly fans and bogens, which are considered later on this page. While there are setts and cubed with perfectly accurate sawn faces, most new cubes are split or cropped and there is an urban myth that, somewhere, there exists a cropped ube that has all six sides exactly orthogonal, the 'perfect cube'. In over 50 years working with cubes, I've never seen one yet!
Cubes: length &#; width &#; thickness Setts at Castlefields, ManchesterWhether they are cobbles, cubes, cassies or setts, they are excellent paving products and will last for many, many years; in fact, some of the stones currently covering the streets of Britain and Ireland have seen over 200 years of continual use.
Their pedigree as a paving unit goes back to the Romans, years ago, and beyond, and they are characteristic of most of the so-called 'historic' towns and cities of these islands. They are fast becoming an essential ingredient in the nostalgia business, as the fashionable designers and developers fondly remember their long-lost days of childhood, sitting on a kerb-stone, twirling sun-softened pitch onto lolly sticks in the streets of post-war Britain.
Cubes in Chester Cobbles in Durham
Nowadays, new setts are produced to regular dimensions in a wide variety of finishes, and are often laid in the same manner as modern concrete block paving . The reclaimed stones can be difficult to lay, mostly because of their inherent randomness, but whether new or reclaimed, when they have been laid correctly, they are a beautiful sight, and make superb paths, patios and driveways, as well as visually stunning areas of civic paving.
As with many other small element paving units, they offer superb possibilities for design. Their natural colouring, which will not fade as do some concrete dyes, and the range of textured finishes bring an extra dimension to paving design, whether it be the re-creation of traditional cobbled streets or an unique and original design for a public area.
Setts are popular for the creation of impressive large-scale patterns in civic paving schemes, such as the popular European Fan Pattern and these magnificent guilloche swirls outside St. Georges' Hall on Lime Street, in Liverpool.
A centre-stone cut from a yorkstone flag is surrounded by 10 courses of granite cubes, then 2 soldier courses of grey-black basalt setts edge a figure-of-eight pattern laid in blue-black long setts. The pattern is bounded by a double channel course of the dark blue-black long setts, and infill paving is done in the lighter-coloured granite cubes. Overall, the pattern is approximately 6 metres in width. What other paving material could give such a stunning look?
Guilloche setts in LiverpoolThere are three main types of rock in the world and they are all used for the production of setts; sedimentary, metamorphic and igneous. Sedimentary rocks, such as sandstone or siltstone, are relatively easier to cut and shape. Metamorphic rock, such as Gneiss, Quartzite or Marble, may retain some of the cleavage planes of its sedimentary ancestor, which is not always a desirable trait, and so this type is rarely used. Igneous setts, such as basalts and granites, are usually much harder and have few, if any, cleavage planes.
Sedimentary setts are still quarried from the Pennine gritstones of Northern England, although more and more hand-hewn setts are being imported from foreign climes, particularly southern Asia, where labour costs are much lower. Many of the UK-produced sedimentary setts are sawn from quarried rock, and may be further processed. This has enabled the development of modular sett paving, which is discussed below.
Hand-hewn setts and cubesIgneous rock types are particularly popular for cubes, although setts are often hewn from granites, basalts, diorites and gabbros. Many of the reclaimed igneous setts and cubes are of British or Irish origin, notably the granites of North Wales, Cumbria, Cornwall, Wicklow and Scotland, but more and more of the new materials are imported from other countries.
Igneous rock tends to be denser than sedimentary rock, and its crystalline nature of makes it much harder to cut with hand tools than most of the sedimentary types. It will rapidly abrade standard blades on power saws, and so, if it must be cut with a saw, a diamond blade is strongly recommended. However, on reclaimed materials the dead straight lines created by power sawing looks awry with the natural finish of these units, so we often ' fettle ' a sawn edge (ie, nobble with a hammer) to give it a more natural, hewn appearance.
It can seem that there are almost no limits on the sizes of setts and cubes, but as mentioned previously the relevant standard BS EN : gives some guidance, in that setts should not be more than 300mm (ish) in length or width, and neither of the plan dimensions (length and width) should be more than twice the thickness, which suggests a maximum thickness of 150mm.
Obviously, there are exceptions. Some reclaimed materials would not meet these precise sizing requirements, and, occasionally, local tradition will result in the use of setts that are larger than the maximum stated dimensions - some setts being laid in Scotland are 200mm thick, for example.
Setts are hewn natural stone and so there is almost inevitably some 'inaccuracy' in the planned dimensions. These inaccuracies are regulated by having a permitted tolerance, a specified maximum variation in size, and because the different finishes available affect the dimensional accuracy, the 'rougher' finished such as cropped/hewn are given more leeway than that for, say, a sawn or textured finish. Although there are 'complications' which are sketchily outlined in the standard, generally speaking cropped/hewn setts and cubes are allowed a tolerance of ±15mm, while sawn/textured setts and cubes are only allowed ± 5mm.
This tolerance leads to a somewhat informal method of material specification for cubes. Given the rather generous tolerances, cubes are often described by a pair of values which indicate the minimum and maximum sizes, in centimetres.
So, the most popular sized cube, which has ideal sizes of 10x10x10 cm, is assumed to have a plusmn;1cm tolerance and is therefore described as a 9-11 cube, that is, cubes with sides that will be between 9cm and 11cm.
This 9-11 cube has a 'length' of 10.5cm.... ...and a 'width' of 9cm - so, it's a 9-11When ordering new cubes, it's usual to specify this dual-number reference, which is explained in the table opposite.
It's worth noting that, with cubes, when the laying pattern is to be a fan or bogen, there will be a requirement for some larger/smaller rectangular cubes and some trapezoidal cubes to complete the patterns, and this is normally stated in the specification so that the supplier can include up to 10% off these 'oddball' cubes.
Some of the popular 'finishes' for sedimentary setts are depicted below. Reclaimed sedimentary setts, if they have a discernable finish left on their upper surface, tend to have the picked and punched finishes more commonly associated with igneous-sourced setts - see below.
Rough punched sandstone Long format riven Caithness Slate Sandstone sawn six sides Tumbled YorkstoneBack in the days before the bureau-Euro-crats came up with the European Standard BS EN , the old British Standard (BS435: Specification for dressed natural stone kerbs, channels, quadrants and setts) had three simple finishes:
... which was straightforward and easily understood.
Now we have to use...
...confusion sometimes arises because bush-hammering, a popular finish for pedestrian areas, might be coarse or fine textured, as might flame texturing.
The standard also gives prominence to a texture referred to as "Dolly Point" which seems to be some coarse bush-hammer like finish popular in Italy!
Bush hammered basalt Flame textured granite Hewn or cropped setts.... ...can result in an uneven pavement
There is a phenomenal range of colours available, virtually any colour you can imagine, but finding it can be quite a task. The problem isn't helped by many suppliers giving delusional names to their offerings. Midnight Glacier probably sounds bloody wonderful to a marketing droid, but doesn't actually tell me what colour the damned stone is.
Even when these aspirational names are rejected, one person's mid-grey is another's dark grey, so colour is always best judged from actual samples.
If you are looking for a particular colour to use on your project, contact the suppliers listed on the links page and ask for details of their colour range - not all suppliers will stock all colours.
Dark grey, silver grey, red and yellow granites Buff, tan, brown and grey sandstones
Coverage rates are quite variable, given the random nature of the stone used for setts and cubes, but for guidance only....
Type of Stone Dimensions(L x W x D) m² perTonne Single edging (Lin m) Approx nr per T Granite cubes 50x50x50mm 9.0m² 150m 2,800 80x80x80mm 5.7m² 63m 700 100x100x100mm 4.5m² 40m 350 150x150x150mm 3.0m² 18m 100 Granite setts 100x100x50mm 8.8m² 75m 680 200x75x150mm 3.9m² 35m 165 200x150x100mm 2.9m² 26m 120 300x100x200mm 2.0m² 19m 62 Gritstone setts 150x125x100mm 4.8m² 32m 110 200x150x150mm 3.2m² 19m 70 275x100x200mm 2.4m² 20m 75
Although it is possible to lay setts and cubes in almost any configuration or design, there are four key patterns that are seen time and time again with sett work in Europe. These are:-
See the Laying Pages for details on different laying techniques.
This is without doubt the most popular pattern and much of the 18th and 19th century sett work laid to the streets and squares of towns and cities is laid to this pattern. It's the traditional 'cobbled streets' pattern, with the courses running at 90° to the direction of traffic (transverse), and it often features a longitudinal (running in same direction as traffic flow) channel at each edge, as shown in the photograph opposite.
A coursed pattern is very simple to lay. The newly-quarried and sawn stone sett paving now widely available, is cut to accurate rectangles and is ideally suited to being laid in courses.
Reclaimed setts and hand-hewn materials are much more irregular and so need to be laid to a taut string line to ensure the courses remain parallel and true to level. Coursework looks even better when cambered.
With coursework, it's important that the vertical joints are staggered, whether the setts are new and close-jointed or reclaimed and mortar/pitch jointed.
Different sett widths help to create a more random and natural appearance to the work. New setts are often supplied in standard widths, but a range of widths can be specified if desired. Reclaimed materials often have to be sorted into compatible widths before laying each course, which adds to the labour costs, but makes for a much more visually appealing finish.
Unlike the straight 'rows' of a coursed pattern, a random layout is basically a jumble of stones positioned wherever they will fit. This method of laying was typically used only on low status work, such as industrial yards, stables, haul roads and other places where the presence of a hard surface was far more important than appearance, and/or where the budget was tight. Often, areas paved in a random pattern utilised the poorer quality setts, the rejects and odd sizes from a prestige job nearby or even reclaimed materials that was considered worn.
Setts laid in random patternThe same rules for layout creation given on the Random Layouts page apply to setts as well as flags; running joints should be kept to a minimum (around 600-900mm ideally, with setts) and the corners of 4 setts should never meet at a single point. It can be a bit of a brain-teaser working out which stone will fit where, and the end results can look somewhat higgledy-piggledy, especially as the jointing tends to vary between butt-jointed (ie, setts in direct contact with immediate neighbours) to wide joints of 75mm or so. The joint width is a good indicator of the quality of workmanship used to lay the paving - the wider the joints, the poorer the job.
Randon laid setts, although some of the blocks of this laminar stone have split in-situ, enhancing the random lookMost random work tends to be a borderline case between setts and cobbles. Just when does a cobble become a sett? How much dressing is required for a field stone or a cobble to qualify as a bone fide sett?
The Kentish Ironstone shown opposite would be teetering on the verge of the cobble/sett boundary, but would probably edge it as a sett by virtue of the rough attempt to create courses from what is a very random stone. In situations like this, it can look fantastic, as long as the jointing doesn't dominate.
Granite....errr....setts or cobbles?
This pattern, also known as Belgian pattern or Florentine pattern amongst others, is the most complicated pattern to set out, and only really works with cubes or setts of smaller plan dimensions. However, it is such a visually pleasing layout that it's easy to see just why it has been so popular for so long. It is a frequently used pattern in Europe and is a fairly common choice of pattern for Pattern Imprinted Concrete , although it looks far better in the natural materials than in coloured concrete.
Ideally, it needs a large area to do it full justice, and should be at least 3 metres wide when used as a driveway, otherwise the pattern becomes 'lost'. However, the smaller setts, such as the 100x100mm and smaller units, give excellent results over comparatively small areas. Fans laid with contrasting colours, eg a silver-grey granite and a black basalt, can look stunning when given the space for the pattern and colour to be appreciated.
The idealised setting-out pattern reproduced below can be adapted for most square paving units, including block paving and flags, as well as setts and cubes. If the paving unit is 'n' mm in width, then the radius, r, should equal 10n. This 'rule of thumb' will need tweaking for any given setts as the dimensional accuracy, size range and scale of fan will all affect how 'tidy' the completed fan looks when laid and jointed.
In practice, a number of wedge-shaped or trapezoidal setts are needed to prevent the joints becoming too wide, and a professional sett layer will usually rough-out a serviceable fan before preparing a template from which to work.
Lack of cutting or wedge-shapes results in wide joints Fans are usually mocked-up to check scale, contrast and joint width Setting out for a European Fan pattern Large scale fans may have outer bands established first Standard scale fans are often laid using a template frame
It's worth noting that there is often some confusion in Britain and Ireland regarding these "arc" patterns. The layout shown above is a fan: there are a number of repeating 'shapes' that interlock and cover a larger area. However, on the continent, one of the more popular layouts is the bogen also known as a segmental arc or even radial-sett paving , which is often mistaken for a fan but is actually a series of stacked arcs. Bogen layout is complex and requires the skills of an experienced artisan as the setts at the ends of the arcs, where one arc meets its neighbour, need to be somewhat smaller than those in the centre of each arc.
Fan layout - note individual, repeating fans Bogens - a series of stacked and interlocking arcsTraditionally, bogens are incredibly strong layouts as the arcs work to dissipate forces over a much larger area. Their development and use reached a peak when horse-drawn traffic dominated the streets, but since the advent of modern vehicles, their use has been gradually demoted to one of aesthetics. However, they remain popular in continental Europe and there has been a sign of renewed interest in both Britain and Ireland since the price and availability of imported granite setts became more favourable in the early years of the 21st century.
Bogens at Belfast City Hall Typical layout plan for bogens Simply stunning Porphyry bogen driveway by Brockstone Construction
The 'domed' surface of the "Hovis-loaf" type reclaimed setts can be awkward to walk on, especially in high-heeled shoes (or so I'm told!)
The irregular nature of the surface can also make access difficult for hand-pushed garden tools such as non-pneumatic tyre wheelbarrows, and lawnmowers. Even relatively flat-topped setts can be difficult to traverse if the jointing is recessed, but the newer sawn setts have wonderfully smooth and level faces, and being laid butt-jointed as is concrete block paving, they present no hazard whatsoever, regardless of which footwear one is wearing.
Properly constructed sett paving is more or less completely impermeable and therefore must be adequately drained to gullies or other suitable drainage points .
Once complete, it should require no maintenance other than the occasional sweep with a broom to remove accumulated dust, etc. Some of the imported sandstone setts can be something of an algae-magnet, so regular cleaning may be required or it may be considered worthwhile to treat them with a suitable sealant .
Relatively expensive - good work costs good money. There are plenty of chancers who claim they can lay setts and then proceed to bollix the job because they simply do not have the relevant experience, and it's that experience that costs. While the setts themselves can be found from £30 per square metre (and upwards) a top-class streetmason or sett-layer will often charge £40-£6per m² to lay them.
The company is the world’s best Cropped and Flamed Setts supplier. We are your one-stop shop for all needs. Our staff are highly-specialized and will help you find the product you need.
When laid well, or when laid to a fan pattern, they can look stunning. All too often the reclaimed or hand-hewn setts are laid slap-dash and then have plain 'white' mortar slapped all over them as an attempt at pointing.
Time consuming and labour intensive....not to be undertaken by the faint hearted.
If you are employing a paving company to lay reclaimed or hand-hewn setts for you, insist on seeing some previous work in the same materials; the skills required in laying irregular setts are not the same skills used with block paving or the regular-dimensioned sawn setts.
For an easier and cheaper alternative to cobbles and setts, take a look at some of the concrete sett blocks now available from the top manufacturers and described more fully in the relevant section of this site. There is a wide range available, including flat, tumbled blocks, domed-top blocks, textured surface blocks and some pretty disgusting and unconvincing 'copies'. As all these blocks can be screed bedded and sand jointed, the labour rate is significantly reduced and therefore they are considerably cheaper than either reclaimed or new stone.
Concrete Sett Paving
Setts can be quite expensive, especially the 'newly quarried' stones, although the new, thinner setts specifically sawn for residential projects do help keep the cost to an acceptable level. Prices for new materials range between £30 and £180 per square metre, depending on thickness, type of stone, finish and quantity.
Reclaimed ("second-hand") granite setts can command a price of £120-250 per tonne (equivalent to around £30-65 per square metre), while gritstone setts are cheaper, starting at around £40 per tonne (£12.50 per m²) for uncleaned, unsorted low-grade stuff. The price for reclaimed materials is highly variable, with significantly higher prices being charged in the SE of England.
There is massive variation in prices charged for the actual laying of sett work. Some of this is because of the wide range of prices quoted for different materials, and some is because of the high level of workmanship required to achieve the best results.
Close-jointed new sett work is much quicker to lay and consequently costs less in labour per unit area than the individually laid hewn setts or cubes, which take almost as long to joint and seal as they do to lay. See the sett construction page for more information.
Most suppliers sell by weight, not by area, relying on the professionals to know what typical coverage is achieved per tonne of various different sett types. This method of buying/selling is preferred because weight is indisputable - an alleged tonne of setts either weighs a tonne or it doesn't, and it's easy to check, whereas selling by area is vague and open to abuse.
A trader can't possibly know what joint width any given sett-layer will achieve. It's all well and good them saying that with a 10mm joint this lot/bag/crate of setts will cover 10m², but joint width will vary, from the ankle-snapping (like that truly bloody awful installation on Coronation Street - must be at least 25mm between each sett &#; the jointing mortar supplier must have loved that job!) to the 'fag-paper' width joints where adjacent setts are actually touching.
I would never buy from a trader selling setts by area. My attitude is that such an arrangement is set up to deceive. What's to stop some charlatan selling 9 setts as capable of covering a square metre, which they possibly would if they were laid with 300mm wide joints?
In theory, 43 setts at 200x100mm should just about cover a square metre allowing for 10mm joints, but that makes no allowance for wastage, and there&#;s nearly always one or two plug-ugly setts in every barrowful. Then, if the joint width was reduced to, say, 6mm, just 4mm narrower, then roughly 46 setts are required for each m². And with close jointing (1-3mm) that goes up to 49 setts short for every m².
The coverage table above gives a reliable guide to the expected coverage for various popular types of setts but be aware that wastage AND joint width will have an impact on just what sort of coverage is actually achieved on any particular project.
The professional sett layer buys by weight, relying on experience to know what sort of coverage figure to expect for a given pattern and style of laying, and making an educated allowance for wastage (often around 5%).
See the Laying Setts page for fuller construction details
Typical bound/rigid construction for new, reclaimed or irregular settsTRANSCRIPT | SHOULD I ALLOW MY TWEEN TO WEAR CROP TOPS?
Ask Lisa Podcast, Ep. 136: Should I Allow My Tween To Wear Crop Tops?
The Ask Lisa Podcast does not constitute medical advice and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have concerns about your child&#;s well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional.
The following transcript has been automatically generated by an AI system and should be used for informational purposes only. We cannot guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or timeliness of the information provided.
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Reena Ninan
So we&#;re tackling an issue today that I am on the cusp of dealing with. What is the crop top age when you need to have a conversation with your child about that?
Lisa Damour
You know, I think it depends on the community. I think I think it&#;s very different region to region. So I think there may be parts of the country where this is popping up by ages. I don&#;t know maybe even 9, 10, 11. And I think parts of the country where it&#;s coming up later.
Reena Ninan
I&#;ve never been a fan of a crop top or cropped anything. Cropped pants, cropped anything. Like I&#;m paying full price. I want the full shirt. I want the full pants.
Lisa Damour
I will tell you with my own adolescent daughters, when I&#;ve seen them all like, oh, did you pay half off for that? Which they do not find to be funny. They don&#;t.
Reena Ninan
They don&#;t find it to be funny in the slightest. I want to read you this note that we got Lisa, this letter from a parent it says Dear Dr. Damour, I have an 11 year old who really wants to wear crop tops. crop tops are installed for teenagers. But I am not comfortable with them. For a preteen. We&#;ve been very clear about this as a boundary, but she uses her own money to buy her crop tops. And we&#;ve caught her sneaking them to school with a sweatshirt on top, which she of course takes off when she gets to school. I understand crop tops are in style. But if you&#;re an 11 year old who&#;s developing, wearing them attracts attention that&#;s inappropriate for her age might just add a touch and need to accept that this is her style expression, or is it okay to have certain boundaries around what&#;s appropriate, particularly during those preteen years. Thank you. Well, first, I&#;m just curious, is this mom out of touch?
Lisa Damour
I don&#;t think she is. But I think the question is, what is she in touch with? Right? I mean, this is a really complicated one. And I think Reena, the place we have to begin with this is that if we picture a crop top, or you know, an 11 year old and a crop top, the way this is viewed by the 11 year old. And the way this is viewed, let&#;s say by her, you know, let&#;s say 40-something mom are completely different. And we have to start there.
Reena Ninan
I get the mom, I&#;m happy to hear more about mom, but I really want to hear what&#;s going through the mind of the tween who thinks this is fabulous. And my parents had attached I&#;m just not gonna listen to them at all.
Lisa Damour
Okay, here&#;s what&#;s going through the mind of the tween. Number one, all lots of kids they know are wearing them, right? They&#;re like, I&#;m looking at this right like, and, you know, no one&#;s bursting into flames. The sky is not falling. Like, I don&#;t see what the big deal is. Number two, it matches what often they&#;re seeing in the media, right? They&#;re seeing imagery of often very, you know, young ish looking girls wearing clothes like this. So they&#;re like, what&#;s the big deal? I&#;m seeing it in my real life. I&#;m seeing it in my digital life. And then the other thing that is so essential 11 year olds, 12 year olds, 13 year olds, 14 year olds, 15 year olds, I mean, I would say well into adolescence. They do not they can not perceive the adult sexuality piece, right. That&#;s what the mom is, is referencing. You know, I&#;ve got a developing kid, I&#;m worried about how this is going to come off. I understand where the mom is coming from the tween, and I will say a lot of teenagers. They have no way to understand that concern. It&#;s not that they&#;re dismissing it. It&#;s like it&#;s a dimension They do not yet have access to. And so when the mom or any parent is having a strong, relaxing reaction of like, oh my gosh, that looks really sexy. Yes. Which of course, as adults, we understand sexuality in a particular way we understand sexiness, we understand that kind of signaling that, you know, whatever you want to call it, the kid has zero access to that dimension. And I think that that&#;s the piece. So what the mom is in touch with is maybe adult understanding this, she was hard to be in touch with once you kind of cross into that dimension. And you can see the sexual implications, or you know, just the sexiness, like, we&#;ll just call it, the sexiness of it. It&#;s hard to unsee it, and remember what it&#;s like to not have that piece of understanding.
Reena Ninan
So how could you explain to a tween that crop tops are not cool that you should not be wearing them?
Lisa Damour
Okay, so if we&#;re gonna go down this road of like, the mom wants to, like, have some line about like, we&#;re not crossing that line yet. So given that, like, let&#;s really think about this, like they&#;re looking at the world with two different sets of glasses, like the mom understands it, all sexuality, and the sexiness of this the kid does not cannot. So I think in terms of how not to explain it, I think going for the sexual ankle won&#;t work, because you&#;re talking to a kid about something that they like, it&#;s like talking to a colorblind person about color, like, ascribe to you and persons like that doesn&#;t make me see the color. Right?
Reena Ninan
So he has a parent saying these crop tops are not cool, stop wearing them is not going to work. So don&#;t go down that road.
Lisa Damour
Yeah, or these crop tops look too sexy, you&#;re not wearing them the killaby. Like, I don&#;t know what you mean. And they really won&#;t know what the adult means. I think if the parent wants to draw the line, a reasonable way to do it, is to talk about, there are different clothes we wear at different ages. And crop tops are more adult. And what it reminds me of as I think through this letter, eight years ago, I was at a wonderful talk by a psychologist named Catherine Adair, who was at Harvard for a long time, and I think may still be there. And she talked about high heels, right? That we don&#;t put little girls in three inch heels. But we do put little girls in those like little like, kind of stack heels, you know, like if you&#;re like dressing up for the holidays or whatever, totally. And that over time, if you&#;re going to move into high heels, the height changes. And so it&#;s fine for adult women if they want to wear very high heels. But none of us I think feel like it&#;s appropriate to put a 4-inch heel on, you know, a 10 year old. And it&#;s not about exposure or anything, it&#;s just like, it&#;s just too adult, for that child. So I think that the way I would go at it is to say, crop tops are kind of adult, and you&#;re still an 11-year-old kid. So I&#;m not saying you can never wear it. And I get it that other people are making other choices, as families always will make their own choices. But I want to table this for a couple of years. We can revisit it later. It&#;s just too adult.
Reena Ninan
So what do you do? They&#;re on the verge of tween years, they feel like they&#;re getting ready to be super independent, you are in your mind thinking you&#;re nowhere near being super independent. They think it&#;s cool. We want nothing to do with it. How do you set up rules on this that makes them feel like okay, they&#;re moving up into the grown up category. But you can rein them in a little.
Lisa Damour
So I think so reality of having rules should do that. Right. So this mom, if we sort of play this out of the way, we&#;re recommending that she says, You know what, it&#;s just too adult in the same way that you&#;re not wearing four inch heels yet. You&#;re not wearing crop tops yet, like End of story. So she&#;s made a rule now, and we&#;ll come to this, the kid is already pushing against the rule and is going to sneak out in the house. You know, like we&#;ll come to the way in which the kid is going to get around the rule. But the rule making a rule that you actually cannot have come even completely have enforced right? I mean, this Mom&#;s already said, she&#;ll go to school and like have a cropped up under the sweatshirt that she left the house and there&#;s still value in the rule. And Reena, here&#;s why. To be a teenager, part of what is healthy and that is to push back against the adults to find friction with the adults. And teenagers are going to do this one way or another. And so what I would say to any parent of a teenager is roll up your sleeves, get ready for some friction and even get ready some front person friction around things that you may never be able to fully enforce. Or you may never win. The other classic is the kid&#;s room and how the kid keeps their room right? Like you can say your room&#;s got to be tidy. And if you don&#;t have a kid who&#;s inclined in that direction, you will stay in a many year dispute about the tiny tidiness of the room. You won&#;t win on Any given day, you may be in ongoing disagreement about this. But my rule on this arena is give teenagers the friction they were looking for on the small stuff on their room on the shirt style. Because in my experience, if you don&#;t give it to them on the small stuff, they&#;re like, Okay, I&#;m looking for the friction, I need to know that there&#;s a grown up in the room. So you don&#;t mind that my room is a disaster. You don&#;t mind that I am blasting music, you don&#;t mind that I&#;m wearing stuff that like I think other adults may not be cool with. Alright, what do I need to do around here to get an adult to step in and find some friction with me. And that&#;s often when you see kids ratcheting, and ratcheting and ratcheting up the misbehavior. So long way of saying, this is not the worst fight to have with your kid and you&#;re going to be having a fight with your teenager if things are going exactly as we expect they will.
Reena Ninan
I want to know what that list is of the small things because in my mind, everything is a big thing. It&#;s like what are the small things that are okay to have friction with that are better, but that way to have friction with with your good?
Lisa Damour
Okay, well, do you want to know my rule for that? Yeah, tell me like teenagers do all sorts of things that are annoying to adults, right? They do all sorts of things that are not our cup of tea, right? So it&#;s their room, it&#;s the music they listen to, it&#;s where they dump their backpack, it&#;s, you know, maybe like the way they wear their makeup or the color of the nail polish they want to wear or like even the style, like they may just even if it&#;s not a question of coverage, or appropriateness, like the style may not be appealing, they will start to refuse to go to church, they will use slang that we find obnoxious. They will find ways to tweak the adults and you don&#;t have to fight with them about everything. Right? Like it&#;s not worth it to get in and on everything. But pick a couple that really matter to you. And then if you&#;re like, should I let it go? Right? Is this one worth fighting about? One of the questions that I always have had in my own life as a mom is, will this matter when she&#;s 30?
Reena Ninan
That&#;s good. It&#;s a good one really good.
Lisa Damour
So if it&#;s gonna matter when they&#;re 30, you should definitely have that fight. So I&#;m thinking about like smoking a lot of marijuana or, you know, not taking good care of themselves in like really important ways. And then there is the tremendous gray area of annoying to the adult, but will not matter when it&#;s 30. And what I would say in that gray area is pick your battles. And I would say that gray area very much crop tops fall cleanly into the category of will not matter when she&#;s 30 What she wore, that you were cropped top at 11. But annoying to adults. And it sounds like this is a battle this adult may be like I&#;m gonna pick it.
Reena Ninan
Lisa, I want to pick back up on that last thought you were saying, when you decide to go blow to blow, mano to mano with your child. Just ask yourself does will this matter when they&#;re 30? That is such a great way of looking at it. The fact that this child is sneaking the cropped up under her sweatshirt and then taking it off at school. You think that&#;s a problem?
Lisa Damour
Reena, I&#;m like, beaming. I&#;m beaming. You make I am like, the biggest smile on my face. This is why I love teenagers, right? That they come up with these ways to be naughty, right to push back against the adults that are really, I would say by and large, I mean, quite harmless. And I can say quite harmless because I deal with teenagers across a very wide range. Like, I know what harmful behavior really really looks like. And like sneaking a crap out of the house is not believe me. Consider the alternatives. It&#;s a pretty good one. It&#;s a good point. It&#;s a good point. Okay, so here&#;s what I remember it I just have such a vivid memory. I write about this in untangled. One of my dear dear friends from high school, a guy named Andy his his older brother went to college and gave Andy a t shirt from the college and it became Andy&#;s favorite t shirt. And Andy Ward, like tried to wear it every single day. And because he worked so often it soon became very very threadbare. It was like, you know, almost translucent. But he loved loved loved it and his mother banned him from wearing it. She&#;s like, you cannot wear that out of the house. It&#;s like so like Adelaide. And so Andy everyday and this is how threadbare the t shirt was used to jam it in the back pocket of his jeans. Leave the house. And the friend who was carpooling over them would pull off. And Andy would in Jays car I remember who it was. switch into the forbidden t shirt. Okay. Andy, best guy ever. Right? Totally solid citizen, terrific student, wonderful human being, you know, dedicated athlete. This was his grand rebellion. This was his way of like sticking it to the man in his household. Okay, so this is how we want to think about it. Like they have to be naughty. Yeah. It&#;s weird when they&#;re not like, I am actually much more concerned about the teenager who&#;s like, I am incredibly obedient and does ever do everything my parents say I&#;m like, Okay, this is not going well. Like there&#;s something amiss. And so if you put it in this broad picture of like, this is the grand rebellion, right? Like, sneaking out of the house and wearing something that like a lot of kids are wearing. It&#;s a perfect solution. And so I would say to the mom, like shirt, like have like, give the kid this thing to fight with you about. And if it&#;s part of a broader picture of where she&#;s terrific, and thriving, and doing all the right things, and getting along well with other grownups and like taking the dog out for a walk, like, you have crushed this, this is terrific. She&#;s doing a great job with it. And so are you.
Reena Ninan
That is a great reminder, because never feels that way, right? And you get caught up in these things and just go head to head and that that 30 year old rule is great. will it matter when they&#;re 30? I&#;m gonna hang on to that. So in the big picture, when you&#;re talking about crop tops, you know, the child might not get the sexuality, the tween might not get the sexuality component. And you notice I didn&#;t say tween I said child initially first, because that&#;s how I feel there is still my child.
Lisa Damour
Eleven is young. No, they&#;re their little kids still, in many ways.
Reena Ninan
So should we be pushing back on this?
Lisa Damour
Well, I think yes, that I can like this question of like, the how, right the how. And I&#;ll tell you arena, what the line the minefield you want to stay out of, and it&#;s a very easy minefield to wade walk into, is, and I&#;ve totally seen this happen so many times in family life, where the 11 year old comes up and down the stairs in her crop top. And the adult goes, Oh my God, you look like a whore.
Reena Ninan
Oh, people just say that?
Lisa Damour
I mean, people say it, and you can totally see, like, and I don&#;t think they mean it, and it but like, they&#;re just like, it&#;s very jarring. And I will also just say this, it&#;s very jarring as a parent to have this kid and you know, you&#;re on the, you know, like on the cusp of this. Yeah, to have this kid who has been your little kid. And to see their bodies change, it&#;s actually very, it&#;s a very jarring thing as a parent, and then to see them experiment with how to dress that new and evolving body. And it&#;s even like the kind of thing that will happen and I&#;ve heard this from other parents is, you know, say and it&#;s often girls where this ends up being you know, more of an issue because their secondary sex characteristics are so much more public as they go through puberty. Yeah. So like you hear all the time of a parent where, you know, maybe the girl had like a little skirt that was like one of her favorite skirts from last Summer. And last summer she was taught. And this summer, she&#;s 13. And so she pulls her favorite skirt out, and she pops it on and it still fits. But oh my goodness, it now looks really, really different on this kid. So it&#;s actually the same clothes totally on an evolving body. And so I mean, nobody should call their kid a whore. Like, I&#;m not saying this is ever okay. But I totally get it where the parent has this, you know, very strong reaction to seeing this sweet child of theirs now, looking very sexy. I mean, just for lack of a better word looking very sexy. And so it comes sometimes people say things that are terribly regrettable. So number one, don&#;t do that. Like don&#;t do that. Like you could think it, you could think it don&#;t say it. Because again, if we go back to that idea of like, there, this has been proceed through two different sets of glasses. The only way the kid can take that, and it&#;s like, what you think I&#;m a whore? Like, they have no way of understanding the perceptual piece. They&#;re like your calling meal or right? I mean, like, it&#;s so painful to the child. So in terms of like, when you&#;re saying pushing back, okay, so don&#;t do that. And then I would say, and this gets into very complex questions as girls get older, don&#;t be like, it&#;s too sexy. Don&#;t display your body in that way. Because what a lot of 13, 14, 15 year old girls will start to say is, it&#;s my body, I can display it any way I want. And actually, this is how I exercise my power, right? Whereas I think you and I came up through a time where the idea of objectification and showing one&#;s body was seen as somehow giving away one&#;s power. Totally. That&#;s right. Today&#;s teenage girls would be like, Oh, no, no, no, this is how I claim my power. So you probably don&#;t want to go down that road, because you&#;re not equipped to have that conversation often. Or you may not be there yet. Or you if you&#;re gonna go down that road, which I would say, you know, feel free to go down that road, be prepared for a very complex conversation about power, perception, and women&#;s bodies. Right. Okay,
Reena Ninan
Good flag. Good. Lisa, I want to ask you that, you know, you know what it feels like when, especially if you&#;ve been working out, and you&#;re in a dress, and you feel good and strong about your body. I also am careful what I say to my daughter about my Wait, about how I feel. And I worry having the cropped up conversation that somehow I&#;m going to give her some sort of a body? How do we have the conversation? You&#;re telling me don&#;t bother telling her about how it sexualized her she&#;s not going to get it? She&#;s not there, it&#;s on her head. So don&#;t go down that road. But how do I talk to her about a crop top and why I don&#;t feel comfortable with her without bringing up all these other body image issues.
Lisa Damour
These are so important, these are so important. So let&#;s just rest for a minute on what you said about adult women talking about their own weight and shape in front of their adolescent girls or their daughters. What we know is basically don&#;t write that when when we see younger girls starting to talk about weight and shape. It&#;s not always the case. But it&#;s sometimes the case that they&#;re mimicking things they&#;ve heard said at home, that strike them as adult that strike them as grown up to worry about your blood or worry about how your thighs look in this thing. So what I would say, and this was, again, a complex thing for us as adult women, but I would say, you know, to the degree that you may have your own, you know, complex feelings about your body, which it&#;s basically impossible to be a woman in this culture and not try to really focus on strength and health and taking good care of oneself and you know, enjoying like, physicality for its own sake. And so, really try to have that be the front facing conversation with your kid. Alright, so what to say to her that doesn&#;t seem like you are not celebrating her. I think you can say look is adorable, like, I won&#;t fight you on that one. And you look adorable in it. Here&#;s the thing. elevens too young, that, you know, that kind of clothing comes with being older. So you can actually have it. You can have your cake and eat it too. You can say Yeah, you look really cute. Like it&#;s working. I get it. And 11 is not crop top age. We can come back to this in a couple of years. See where we&#;re at.
Reena Ninan
You know what we did at the start of school year because we were starting middle school for the first time. What I had to do at the start of the school year was read the dress code, which I would never ever normally do. But because we&#;re in this kind of fine line of and she looks cute, she looks great, you know, but she does not see that her body has changed at all. She doesn&#;t get it you know.
Lisa Damour
They don&#;t get it. Dress codes are complicated too.
Reena Ninan
Oh, tell me. Wait, did I just do the wrong thing?
Lisa Damour
No, you did a great thing to bring it up because you know schools really struggle with dress codes because a lot of times the dress codes like it&#;s a lot about what the girls are wearing. Right that you know that like the boys And the exposure of their bodies does not get much traction in the dress code. Because usually boys are wearing big blue, they&#;re wearing big, you know, you&#;ve got to sound like they&#;re being like those horribly long shorts. So the dress codes can disproportionately land on the girls. Yeah. And so schools really struggle, or they schools should really struggle with how to make dress codes if they&#;re going to make them and to how to not have dress codes. Seamless text, and seem to be targeting the fact that girls bodies are heavily objectified in our culture, and schools sometimes, you know, trying to figure out what to do with that. So if your school has a dress code, which it sounds like they do, I first hope that they&#;ve given this a lot of thought about how to have a dress code that does the feels even handed and does not, you know, sort of center very heavily on police and girls bodies. But to the degree that your school has a dress code, like they&#;re doing you a huge favor. If you like where their dress code is headed, you can be like, Look, it&#;s an ambience the school, right. So I think that&#;s a nice way to go about it.
Reena Ninan
That&#;s great. Wow, well, so much to talk about crop tops, who knew there was this much in parenting to discuss and be aware of? But what do you have for us Lisa for Parenting to Go?
Lisa Damour
Well, there&#;s another little nugget in this letter. That is, I think terrific, which is the kid is buying the crop tops with her own money. And I think this is one of those things that we should remember is a real opening for us as adults when we&#;re not in agreement with kids about things. Which is, they may want us to buy things for them that we don&#;t want to buy. They may at times use their own money to sneak things that, again, we don&#;t want them to own. But again, will it matter when they&#;re 30 I want parents to have available as a conversational trapdoor that they can say to their kids, for as long as I am purchasing, you&#;re gonna have to negotiate with my wishes. But as you make your own money, you will get to have much more freedom. And that&#;s one of the best things about making money. It&#;s one of the best things about being an adult. So the situation we&#;re in, it won&#;t last forever, increasingly, you will have say and you will have choice because you will actually have your own resources that you have earned through your own work.
Reena Ninan
But for now, you have money. I will be deciding what you&#;re going to wear.
Lisa Damour
I think for now on this one, you can say, You have money. I understand that you can buy crop tops on your own time. My rule right now is 11 is too young.
Reena Ninan
So on this issue 11 is too young.
Lisa Damour
Yeah.
Reena Ninan
Lisa, thank you, I think there&#;s so much, you know, what I loved also was how the mom brought up expression, you know, using clothes as a way to express themselves what you highlighted earlier in our conversation, but it&#;s a good way to thread the needle by saying that, you know, at some point, you&#;ll be on your own and fully able to purchase everything and you can make that choice then but the time will come, the time will come. Well, these are on a more serious note, we&#;re gonna next week take up an issue that I think it&#;s so important. It&#;s apparent writing in about a team with a chronic health condition. What do you need to keep in mind? What should the community keep in mind? And how do you address it? I&#;ll see you next week.
Lisa Damour
I&#;ll see you next week.
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